In the name of the prophet

[espana]

Has any one else seen the photographs or video from Terhan of the 8 year old orphan child having his arm crushed by a truck being slowly driven over it the audience cheering at his screams

His crime stealing a 30 cent roll for his younger sister. The Justice of a religon of peace love and mercy.
For those interested check out the story on www.metacafe.com

[Harry Chimp]

These people are without pity, without compassion, without education/brains, all they seem to understand is violence
and more violence of the most brutal variety.
One day they will go too far and end up splattered.
The worst thing in my opinion is that the decent and good ones among them, and there must be many,
will not do anything or say anything, to change our opinion about them.

[Marlene38EE]

Any school of thought that permits, commands or encourages such a despicable crime against a child is one that should be eradicated as something inimical and anathema to Humanity as a whole.
Monsters and evil exist, they're tight there cheering in the video, wearing the mask of 'righteousness' and 'justice'.
Crush wounds are dangerous, and lead to a type of systemic poisoning, on top of being hideously painful...truly charming not-people in that vid cheering such happening to a child.

If that were my child, I'd take one of the onlookers, preferably the ringleader if I could close enough as a hostage...and make them all remember the truth that the most dangerous thing in the universe is a mother protecting her child.
I don't need to know how to fight to sneak up behind some idjit and put a razor sharp knife, or a jagged piece of glass to his carotid artery and start cutting to ensure they knew i was serious, then give the order. The more they delayed my order to return my child, the deeper I'd cut--how tough would some 'holy warrior' or Religious Police idjit be at that point??
I don't know how the rest of you girls here feel, but I'm Old School regarding Motherhood--harming my offspring is swift and certain suicide no matter who you are and your god cannot protect you from me

Yes, the video got to me, and no i won't apologize for that, or my reactions/statements--I'm calling it as and what it is.

There's many examples throughout history of many religions being directly responsible for really horrifying things. muslims and islam are NOT unique in this.
Which is why we won't have any trace of religion in our home.
We're not haters of religion, we simply will have nothing to do with it and will not ever willingly allow any aspect of it into our lives.

[GhostRider]

You know what though? I think they're just a brutal people period. For example, everyone thinks that female genital mutilation is an African Muslim thing, this horrible brutal practice (for the record I think male circumcision is unnecessary anachronistic and brutal too) is also practised by African Christians so its a cultural thing. Certainly there are aspects of Islam used to justify this violence but I think humanity proves that any reason at all has been used to justify violence against others from the dawn of Man.

I dont think i'm a western imperialist to say that that part of the world is SERIOUSLY f*cked!

[Marlene38EE]

You know what though? I think they're just a brutal people period. For example, everyone thinks that female genital mutilation is an African Muslim thing, this horrible brutal practice (for the record I think male circumcision is unnecessary anachronistic and brutal too) is also practised by African Christians so its a cultural thing. Certainly there are aspects of Islam used to justify this violence but I think humanity proves that any reason at all has been used to justify violence against others from the dawn of Man.

I dont think i'm a western imperialist to say that that part of the world is SERIOUSLY f*cked!

I have to agree, because when you look back across history...there's no way around it. It's undeniable, and if you look up female circumcision, it's a lot wider-spread historically than many people think.
I've stated my views on circumcision in general for both male and female as pointless and meaningless mutilation for NO good sound or solid medical reason.
It'll never happen to any of my children, male or female.
It's also not just muslims, but christianity also--it's religion itself that gets used to justify the most insanely depraved acts and policies. Look over religion historically, all of it and not just one vs. another and it's terrifying, horrible and absolutely stark-screaming insane what's been perpetrated under it's cover. Some things that are not considered 'religions' do fit the paradigm;
Khmer Rouge, Mao Tes Tung's cult of personality, Nazi-ism and various cults, etc..

Religion; the catch-all excuse for damned near anything.

You're not a Western Imperialist, just someone speaking the truth...a mighty unpopular thing these days. :D

[Blackwinter]

If some idiot threatens any degree of harm (and I consider male Circumsision as such) to my family or any of it's members---simply put, God won't be able to save that wretch from me.
...and if some idiot decides to have any male children of ours subjected to such despite our Standing Orders against Circumsision--you'll hear about it the news, count on it.
Muslims and such other religiosity....I have NO time for such a mass psychotic delusion, and will not bend knee to any man who claims to be a 'servant of god'...I'll die in fire, first.
Religion is the single most vile thing ever brought about as it gives a 'free-pass' to such things as circumsisions, burning 'witches', and stoning women whose only 'crime' was being forcibly raped/sexually assaulted...and lets not forget, killing CHILDREN by means of religiously-decreed punishment.
...for trying to help his younger sister.

And people wonder why I loathe/hate religion so much, for all the deaths and misery it's caused.

Blackwinter

[Brigit Astar]

I agree with everything you say. I would just add this: communism (especially under Stalin) has killed more people and committed more crimes against humanity than anything else in this world. Religion and nationalism come in second and third.

[Marlene38EE]

I agree with everything you say. I would just add this: communism (especially under Stalin) has killed more people and committed more crimes against humanity than anything else in this world. Religion and nationalism come in second and third.

We knew we forgot to mention something...yes,you're quite correct, Communism. Right in front of our faces, totally obvious--so of course we couldn't see it. :)
Hmmm...I guess we're talking about belief-systems overall, aren't we?? Look at Communism,Nazi-ism, religion and they all have the same quality; The Higher Power lets people commit sheer insanity/ass murder/extreme persecution, and calls it 'good', 'righteous', etc..

[espana]

Communism no matter what clothes it wears has since its inception can directly and indirectly take credit for a 100 million dead [last estimate seen] Christianity and Islam closer to 1 Billion.
But then communism has only been about for a hundred years or so unlike the couple of thousand of the established religons

[Marlene38EE]

Communism no matter what clothes it wears has since its inception can directly and indirectly take credit for a 100 million dead [last estimate seen] Christianity and Islam closer to 1 Billion.
But then communism has only been about for a hundred years or so unlike the couple of thousand of the established religons

Yeah, pretty much. Political or religious Beliefe Systems share so much in common, it's hard to really call them different--but they're about the same in that they're drenched in blood.
...and some people wonder why hubby and I won't allow any religious influence into our home, or anything even remotely close to something espousing Communism, Fascism or such Totalitarian ideologies.
We don't need any of that, and don't want any of it.

[Brigit Astar]

espana, your numbers are greatly inflated

[espana]

Estimated numbers are Taken from the British Libary and the Library of Congress
Stalins policys in the USSR of ideological cleansing during the period 1929 to 39 record over 10 million deaths whole nations deported never to be seen again . This figure does not inclued those 9.5 milion who were victims of the 32 -33 famine now seen by many historians as a direct act of genocide.

A little known fact is that some thousands of Americans who imigrated to the USSR during the great depression were executed out of hand between 37 and 39 [Records vary 4200 to 7700]

If we then look at China Korea Vietnam. Cambodia alone reduced its population by over a third. Satelite film of north Korea shows whole citys denuded of population And we havent even started on the African states

100 million is if anything an understated conservative figure.

As for religous deaths direct and indirect just concerntrating on Christianity and Islam a billion since there inception is if anything a reasonable estimation given written records add in other major belief systems and you easily pass that figure

Marlene the point that religon allows people to do the unspeakable with a clear conciounce in the name of there God for me is an anathema just as is the mealy mouthed utterances of politicans justifying the unspeakable in the name of the public good

Religon Politics be the death of us all

[frankuk]

Cruelty and killing have always gone hand in hand with religion throughout history whether it was torture and killing of heretics or those believed to be witches to the slaughter of the Aztecs and the Incas by the Spanish conquistadors in the name of the Catholic church on the orders of the pope. The most common reason though was because tribes or communities wouldn't accept the religion of their conquerors but this does not mean that it is restricted solely to religion.
Even so-called civilized countries have slaughtered millions in their exploitation of other races and we British have many instances of this during the days of the empire but probably one of the most barbaric nations was Belgium during their occupation of the Congo in the early 20th century. They enslaved practically every male and forced them to work in the extraction of the precious minerals of that country and the punishment for not working hard enough was to chop off the hands of their wives and children. This wasn't done surgically but with an axe or machette without anasthetic. By the time the Belgiums left the Congo they had killed more than 10,000,000 of the population and mutilated more than 3,000,000.
However before any American members get too high and mighty and self righteous about the records of other nations both today and in the past just remember your own history and your country's exploitation of and genocidal attitude to the native Americans and all in the name of the "superior whiteman" and even today most of them are still second class citizens in the country that was originally theirs. You have nothing to brag about in your past.
History proves that cruelty is an inbred nature of all societies and not just a doctrine of one or more religions

[Marlene38EE]

Warning - The Surgeon General has determined that discompassionate Religious and Political Belief Systems are hazardous to the long-term survival of your species.

That bad joke aside, I'd like to add to what frankuk posted, that Canada has it's own share of dark doings regarding how Native Americans were treated in the past also. Also, I'll point out the inter-tribal wars that have been going on in Africa for so long, like the Hutu/Tutsi conflict and many others, those seem to have elements of both religious and cultural based intolerance, so they fit in here.

[Brigit Astar]

Communism no matter what clothes it wears has since its inception can directly and indirectly take credit for a 100 million dead [last estimate seen] Christianity and Islam closer to 1 Billion.
But then communism has only been about for a hundred years or so unlike the couple of thousand of the established religons

If what you say is true--that Christianity and Islam are responsible for a billion deaths, think about this: Christianity is only about two thousand years old and Islam about 1500 years old. In order to kill a billion people, those two religions would have had to kill hundreds of thousands every day for 2,000 years. You need to drastically revise your numbers.

[Marlene38EE]

It worked out to 285000-ish, per year, between both religions over their combined span of 3500 years. I have to agree with Brigit, there's some errors in your math, but I do think it's safe to say that millions upon millions of people down the centuries have been taken to their ends by these two religions alone.
The point, and I think we can all agree, is that any belief system be it religious or political, or other that espouses suppression of one's own self-determination and judgement, encourages 'faith' in a 'higher power' be it a sky-spirit or a 'perfect government' is something that always turn into a murder-machine.
Examples below as we're all aware;
Religion in general.
Communism
Fascism

Look at the similarities between them, they're all every bit as bad as each other and the differences are slight at best.
They all achieve the same end; Us vs. Them and people dying in huge numbers.

[lookinforward]

In defense of the Iranian people if there is such a defense... We are trying to understand and justify a totally different culture, based on the standards of our own society. Meaning we find harming a child appalling for any reason. And to me it is. But to some of the people of that country, they look at it as the person got what they deserved. And again, I am not justifying this or saying it is right. Our standards and laws would not allow it. But theirs do. There are hard line religious groups and zealots that believe in totally different laws and practice a totally different culture, then what we do. Laws we find shocking. But to them, some of them are every day life.

Remember when the United States was first considering the invasion of Afghanistan? The news network was flooded with political figures telling us, they make the women wear a burka, and husbands have the right to beat their wives and children, even kill them. Women can not go to school. Women can be stoned (and we don't mean the good kind) for adultery. They can't listen to music. All sorts of shocking things that we take for granted every day. And it did just what the politicians wanted it to do. It made us more accepting to the fact that WE needed to go over there and right that wrong. But in their society, a culture and society that is far older then ours, this was a way of life. Maybe not fair based on our standards, but was an accepted way of life. I am sure that this child who's arm was crushed for stealing a chunk of bread for his sister, was probably well aware of the consequences if he were caught.

My nephew was stationed in Afghanistan. And he was telling me how when the soldiers would approach women and children with food, water, radios, and gifts, many would scream (howl he called it) and flee from them. The men would then come forward and accept the "presents" and you can bet, the children and women got very little of all of that. But that was their culture. Although he did say that towards the end of his stay, the children were getting much more willing to approach and accept things.

These are a hard line, often violent people. They live a hard life in many parts of the middle east. Plus they have a religion that teaches them that this is the way they should live. They have a culture that tells them to accept these kind of treatments of their society. I am not justifying it, I am just trying to explain that we judge them by a whole different book of rules. So while crushing a boys arm is wrong, shocking, and brutal, to us.. that might not be the case by their standards.

What man has done to other men all in the name of religion and cultural differences is shocking. And this happens in all countries, including our own. Perhaps not to the same extreme as some of the others. But all the same, things happen in far away lands that we find very hard to understand. This is one such case.

[Marlene38EE]

Some real truth about this urban legend...
But it could be all-too-real someday soon, yes??

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/crushboy.asp

[Marlene38EE]

In defense of the Iranian people if there is such a defense... We are trying to understand and justify a totally different culture, based on the standards of our own society. Meaning we find harming a child appalling for any reason. And to me it is. But to some of the people of that country, they look at it as the person got what they deserved. And again, I am not justifying this or saying it is right. Our standards and laws would not allow it. But theirs do. There are hard line religious groups and zealots that believe in totally different laws and practice a totally different culture, then what we do. Laws we find shocking. But to them, some of them are every day life.

REPLY
First, it was a fake report--real pics of a street-magic trick, alse story though.
2nd, the atrocities being perpetrated are the work of Extremists/Militants. Such are causing all the grief, not normal work-a-day muslim folks.
Now my thoughts Extremists are tempered by something happening here in our city I will be speaking about soon--it's been going on for a while, but things are rapidly coming to a head.
Extremists of any kind, muslim christian, communist, etc., are the ones in the world creating all the terror and bloodshed.
THEY should be hunted down to the last and eradicated as a threat to the species.

Remember when the United States was first considering the invasion of Afghanistan? The news network was flooded with political figures telling us, they make the women wear a burka, and husbands have the right to beat their wives and children, even kill them. Women can not go to school. Women can be stoned (and we don't mean the good kind) for adultery. They can't listen to music. All sorts of shocking things that we take for granted every day. And it did just what the politicians wanted it to do. It made us more accepting to the fact that WE needed to go over there and right that wrong. But in their society, a culture and society that is far older then ours, this was a way of life. Maybe not fair based on our standards, but was an accepted way of life. I am sure that this child who's arm was crushed for stealing a chunk of bread for his sister, was probably well aware of the consequences if he were caught.

My nephew was stationed in Afghanistan. And he was telling me how when the soldiers would approach women and children with food, water, radios, and gifts, many would scream (howl he called it) and flee from them. The men would then come forward and accept the "presents" and you can bet, the children and women got very little of all of that. But that was their culture. Although he did say that towards the end of his stay, the children were getting much more willing to approach and accept things.

These are a hard line, often violent people. They live a hard life in many parts of the middle east. Plus they have a religion that teaches them that this is the way they should live. They have a culture that tells them to accept these kind of treatments of their society. I am not justifying it, I am just trying to explain that we judge them by a whole different book of rules. So while crushing a boys arm is wrong, shocking, and brutal, to us.. that might not be the case by their standards.

What man has done to other men all in the name of religion and cultural differences is shocking. And this happens in all countries, including our own. Perhaps not to the same extreme as some of the others. But all the same, things happen in far away lands that we find very hard to understand. This is one such case.

REPLY;
They can do as they like in their own nations, that is their right as Sentient Beings, and I will stand with that to the end.
BUT...
They're trying to bring that garbage here...and succeeding.

Where we live, as most of you know, it's rural-urban, but more rural and barely big enough to be called a city legally.
We've been having a steadily growing population o muslim exremists here.
Here's some of what they've been doing....
Harrassing women who are out without a man's company, this includes some lovely insults as well.
I've been harrassed more than once, as have local friends and acquaintances, also I've witnessed such happening to women I don't know. Brianna was hassled on her way home yesterday, half a block from our home.
They made it Clear, by directly addressing our council in-person that our community would come under 'allah's will'.

They've threatened councilmembers to vote 'properly' on:
Institution of mutaween (religious police) with powers of arrest, search & siezure, etc. with their own station and holding facilities. To be financed by a tax levied called a 'jizya' or something like that...paid directly to the mosque, naturally.
A legally-binding dress-code law for women.
sharia law...which the mutaween would exclusively follow as it is demanded that it would supersede all local, provincial, federal laws which would only apply after appeal and possible transfer to non-sharia courts.
Possible transfer, they'd have the power to deny it.
The complete ban on sale/consumption of pork/pork-related products within the city.

Reminder: These are just the highlights folks...

They were flatly denied permission to build a mosque, they're doing so anyways and have sternly warned against any interference with it.
The local Moderate muslims are pressing council and citizens really hard to concede the sharia issue to 'encourage and foster peace'...so I'm wondering how 'moderate' they are.
NO interest from the media on this at all.
NO help or even a reply from provincial/federal gov'ts about this aside from one little functionary who spent two days interviewing muslims, no one else, and told the council that; 'there is no apparent problem here.'.
The RCMP detachment here was 'invited' to leave upon institution of the mutaween as they'll no longer be needed or welcomed, nor have any authority in the jurisdiction after that. The RCMP here don't know what to do, and are walking on eggshells.

Can't happen here? It is.
Same as it's happening in England, Sweden, etc..
Note; Check out Sweden's rape statistics...it's gone from 0 to 'WTF?!'

http://majorityrights.com/weblog/comments/muslim_rape_wave_in_sweden/

http://europenews.dk/en/node/22631

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/938

In the past year, Rape and assault against women here in our community has sharply increased also, and the open contempt we local women are being treated with by muslims is increasing steadily also.
Ain't blind multiculturalism grand??

[Pale Rider]

I say we should declare open season with no bag limit..................yes it is said in jest but just barely. Welcome to my country, obey MY laws, Behave your self and we may just ALLOW you to remain here. Deviate from this course and you will get to see ALLAH sooner than expected. On this matter there is no compromise. I will not tell them what to do in THEIR homeland, and I expect do course, no I demand the same in MY country. This is what we are experiencing here along our southern border. We should not be allowed to determine who enters our land and how many should be allowed to stay. It is akin to an invasion force without a single shot fired, and when the minority becomes the majority thru sheer numbers on the ground what do we think the end result will be?........This all so maddening to me.........blood is boiling and its not for the right reasons.......

[Marlene38EE]

I say we should declare open season with no bag limit..................yes it is said in jest but just barely. Welcome to my country, obey MY laws, Behave your self and we may just ALLOW you to remain here. Deviate from this course and you will get to see ALLAH sooner than expected. On this matter there is no compromise. I will not tell them what to do in THEIR homeland, and I expect do course, no I demand the same in MY country. This is what we are experiencing here along our southern border. We should not be allowed to determine who enters our land and how many should be allowed to stay. It is akin to an invasion force without a single shot fired, and when the minority becomes the majority thru sheer numbers on the ground what do we think the end result will be?........This all so maddening to me.........blood is boiling and its not for the right reasons.......

Obviously, right there with you. 100%!!
Also Well-Said!!
Brianna's experience obviously scared her, and there WILL be consequences. :jaws:
The incident has been reported to the RCMP and we the citizens are setting up a WW2 Resistance, just in case things go where the do seem to be heading. Everything that happens elsewhere, can happen here--and likely will. So, we as a community are playing smart and learing from what's been going on in other locales.
The one thing we're all concerned about is assault weapons--it's only a matter of time until they start waving AK-variants around and dispensing their authority from the muzzles of such. Given the way they've been behaving so far...?? VERY likely I'd say.
Canadian gun control laws aren't gonna stop them, we already know that.

[Brigit Astar]

In my humble opinion, the U.S. is heading down the slope and becoming (gradually) a third world country. There will come a time when the U.S. is a poor, powerless, destitute country, dependent on other countries for our protection and welfare.

[Marlene38EE]

In my humble opinion, the U.S. is heading down the slope and becoming (gradually) a third world country. There will come a time when the U.S. is a poor, powerless, destitute country, dependent on other countries for our protection and welfare.

Pretty much looks that way doesn't it??
Canada...I dunno. Things for this nation could go in a few different ways.
The question about the amnesty for illegal immigrants in the USA right now, if they do that it's gonna open the floodgates or worse.
20 million illegals is my understanding of the numbers...Canada's population is 34,859,000-ish, so that's 2/3rds of our population effectively. That's a lot of jobs they're wrongfully taking from legit Americans, and lets not forget what most do with large parts of their pay--they send it out-of-country for a variety of reasons, and some are NOT good.
My folks, like many others, immigrated by the Law and as far as I'm concerned everyone else can do the same or suffer the consequences. Illegal immigration really messes a country up, skews it's economy, and creates a lot of stressors on the Citizens and between Citizens and the government. One thing we'll be doing with our company is requiring proof of Citizenship or permission to work in Canada, and we will be checking the information out.
If it comes out false, there'll be a call placed to the authorities immediately.
Same (especially so) for when we open offices in the USA.
Turning a blind eye to Illegals, would be so hypocritical to the memory of my parents, and I won't do that.

[Pale Rider]

In my humble opinion, the U.S. is heading down the slope and becoming (gradually) a third world country. There will come a time when the U.S. is a poor, powerless, destitute country, dependent on other countries for our protection and welfare.

Unfortunately I believe you are all too correct with that statement. However we are somewhat to blame as we have elected spineless people to run our great nation and they have done just that, right into the ground. I sometimes wonder it the Russian diplomat got it right when he said we would split into several smaller countries. Scary

[Pale Rider]

Pretty much looks that way doesn't it??
Canada...I dunno. Things for this nation could go in a few different ways.
The question about the amnesty for illegal immigrants in the USA right now, if they do that it's gonna open the floodgates or worse.
20 million illegals is my understanding of the numbers...Canada's population is 34,859,000-ish, so that's 2/3rds of our population effectively. That's a lot of jobs they're wrongfully taking from legit Americans, and lets not forget what most do with large parts of their pay--they send it out-of-country for a variety of reasons, and some are NOT good.
My folks, like many others, immigrated by the Law and as far as I'm concerned everyone else can do the same or suffer the consequences. Illegal immigration really messes a country up, skews it's economy, and creates a lot of stressors on the Citizens and between Citizens and the government. One thing we'll be doing with our company is requiring proof of Citizenship or permission to work in Canada, and we will be checking the information out.
If it comes out false, there'll be a call placed to the authorities immediately.
Same (especially so) for when we open offices in the USA.
Turning a blind eye to Illegals, would be so hypocritical to the memory of my parents, and I won't do that.


I have zero problems with "legal" immigration into this nation; when done correctly it enriches us.
I also do not kid myself about them taking our jobs; while I would do some of the things they do, on the whole they work for far less and in conditions that frankly me and so many others would not tolerate. It has been like this so long that our economy has become somewhat dependant on them. I just think that as a sovereign nation we should retain the right to decide who enters and for how long they may stay. As to sending the money home, thats the biggest draw for them. We are Mexico's largest employer. I'll come back to this when my blood cools.......

[Marlene38EE]

I have zero problems with "legal" immigration into this nation; when done correctly it enriches us.
I also do not kid myself about them taking our jobs; while I would do some of the things they do, on the whole they work for far less and in conditions that frankly me and so many others would not tolerate. It has been like this so long that our economy has become somewhat dependant on them. I just think that as a sovereign nation we should retain the right to decide who enters and for how long they may stay. As to sending the money home, thats the biggest draw for them. We are Mexico's largest employer. I'll come back to this when my blood cools.......

Legal immigration, as you basically say, is perectly fine--that's how it's supposed to work. A country, logically, wants folks of integrity, who will enrich their new home, not wreak havok and drain the economy.
Every nation has the right, and the responsibility to control entry. Without it, you wind up with heavy numbers of undesireables like criminals, terrorists, etc.. Undocumented, untraceable...altogether a very bad situation for gov't, citizens, and the nations economy and stability.
Sending $$ home, sees it used for things that ofter work to the detriment of the host nation. Like funding terrorist and other criminal activities.
The key with Mexico seems to be just 'fixing' their economy.
Inexpensive energy.
Case in point...
http://arcticstormfront.blogspot.ca/
I would imagine that many of them would welcome such, and the jobs that it brings. One element of the plan is that to reduce inefficiency we'll be having a subsidiary that makes/repairs/re-winds motors & generators. Simplifies maintenance, but also creates a lot of permanent jobs. Same with the battery packs, also.
Our main target in the USA is powerplants, yes--but also massive recycling plants with each one wholly powered by it's own powerplant of this design, and selling it's surplus power to the grid.
Recycling is energy-intensive, meaning very thin profitability margins. Cut that overhead, and it becomes lucrative and thus would be done more.

Because of the way the world is trending through another historic cycle of barbarism and such, we've also made the decision to have a Corporate Military, and I'm researching those now--like Blackwater, for example.
Defensive only, but also to be deployed in times of crisis like flood or such where they can help save people's lives.

I don't doubt your blood's boiling over these issues, you can imagine how Husband & John see the things happening here. What's being perpetrated by our governments is shameful, wrong, deceitful, sloppy and is taking our two nations on a downward spiral.
It must be stopped, the citizens must reclaim their rightful control over these two governments and remove the influence of the special-interest groups once and for all--including espousers of religion as such has NO place in government.
I've been reading up on the USA's Founding Fathers and their views on religion and state...very informative and educational, in light of the current election which is more and more becoming a religious issue.

[Marlene38EE]

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/07/16/muslim-street-cleric-wants-to-protect-canadian-women-from-sex-assault-by-forcing-them-to-cover-up

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2012/07/20120716-084302.html

QUOTE

Canadian laws should be changed to require women to "cover themselves" to prevent sexual assaults, says an Islamic street preacher in Toronto.

Al-Haashim Kamena Atangana, a 33-year-old Islamic convert, called for legal change in response to recent sex attacks at York University.

Atangana is connected with a group called Muslim Support Network and is one of a number of street-corner clerics commonly seen at the Yonge and Dundas Sts.

In an e-mail to the Toronto Sun, Atangana said "the reason ... these sex attacks are continuously happening is because (of) Canadian laws, which give too much freedom to women" when it comes to how they dress.

"You should take your example from the way Muslim women dress," he wrote. "Why does (sic) Muslim women who wear long dress and covers her head aren't targeted for sex attacks?"

The clash between western culture and values and the beliefs of some Muslim adherents has been a source of controversy and conflict across North America.

Atangana, who plans to distribute his views on paper in the coming weeks, went on to state that "the reason ... a woman gets raped is because of the way she (dresses)," and suggests that "Toronto (become) the first city in North America to introduce laws that would make it illegal for women to dress provocatively."

If Toronto did this, Atangana said in an interview, other Canadian cities would follow suit.

"If (women) want to prevent being sexually assaulted, they should cover themselves," said Atangana, adding that while he doesn't expect Western women to dress as Muslim women do, they should have a "dress code" and take note of the burka the head scarf and face veil some Muslim females wear.

Atangana says he began planning to distribute his views after a recent spate of sex assaults at York University's Keele campus, and praised Const. Michael Sanguinetti, a Toronto police officer who ended up in hot water after telling students at a York University safety forum in January 2011 that women should avoid dressing like "sluts" if they didn't want to be victimized.

The website Atangana provided for his group, Muslimsupport.net, is sparsely populated but contains links to other sites that offer advice on conversion to Islam and Islamic dress, including such advice as this:

"Men must cover their body from the navel to the knees. But when praying he must also cover his shoulder."

"Women must cover their whole body except the face, hands and feet while inside. But they are also required to cover their whole body including a part of the face while going out, according to the majority of the Madhabs (school of thought)."

Moderate Muslim writer Tarek Fatah says Atangana's view is a stark example of radical Islamist misogyny. It is an example, Fatah says, of passages taken from the Qur'an, Islam's holy book, and exaggerated to fit an antiquated, patriarchal ideology such as that of the Muslim Brotherhood.

"This is not about what women wear," Fatah said. "This is about ... some Muslim men believing that any woman whose head is uncovered is fair game because she is lustful...and doesn't belong to the pious (Islamic) sisterhood."

Fatah says it is "hogwash" to think a woman wearing traditional Islamic dress will not be sexually assaulted, and points to an on-going problem of sexual harassment in Egypt, where Muslim faith dominates.

According to a 2008 report from the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights, 83% of Egyptian women had experienced some form of sexual harassment or assault at some point. And well, over half of those surveyed around 70% wore veils of some kind, particularly head scarves.

"These results disprove the belief that sexual harassment is linked to the way women dress," the report states. "This confirms that the stereotypical ideas of a patriarchal culture that blames women even if they are victims, is opposite to reality."

But Alia Hogben of the Canadian Council of Muslim Women sees things differently: Atangana's opinions are not as much to do with Islam as much as they reflect a general patriarchal desire among some men to control women.

"There is absolutely no connection between how women dress and being sexually assaulted," Hogben said, adding that other religions from Judaism to Christianity have traditional dress codes of their own. She did agree, however, that "good, pious" Muslim women are sexually harassed, despite wearing modest and traditional clothing.

"If (Atangana) thinks good, pious Muslim women are not sexually assaulted, he's wrong. If he thinks this is not happening in India or Egypt ... it is not true."

As for Atangana, who converted to Islam in 1998 after finding the Trinity of Christianity the belief in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit too "confusing," he remains steadfast in his views.

"Women here should have a dress code," he says. "That would prevent sexual assault."

terry.davidson@sunmedia.ca

ENDQUOTE

[espana]

rape and sex crimes against women are commonplace in most Islamic countrys vey few are prosecuted or investigated in any way . The only proof of rape under sharia law is that the actual rape be witnessed by 2 males failing this evidence women alleging rape are normaly charged with adultery.
In England where even with establishment cover ups have prevented pakistani men from being identified, even so more and more Islamic rape gangs and pedophile rings are being prosecuted which has prompted moves by Islamic organisations and individuals that prosecutions should be temperd by the understanding that womens evidence must allways be suspect

[Pale Rider]

This is really making my stomach churn, I truly believe that this crap they call " Sharia law" is solely intended to "put the female down where she belongs", underfoot. What a crock. The other reason is to keep the "weak minded males " of their society in check. I do not care how any Lady dresses, sexy or not, if you can not resist the urge to sexually assault her then in my book you have given up all rights at life. A vale or "burka" isn't going to save her from any male, Muslim or not, if he intends to do harm. I fear that we have let the wolves into our house with our multi-culturalism and our ever increasing desire to include all peoples into this experiment we call America. I like visiting my friends but I have no desire to live with them or them with me. I would enjoy traveling to faraway places to see how others are living out their lives, but that is where it must end. I would not force my beliefs upon them and I would not expect that I could even get away with doing so in many of their native nations, yet we are expected to comply with their edicts and decrees because they are "Holy ordained". Bullshit. Send the rat bastards back from whence they came and let them pound sand until the end of time. I gotta quit doing this to myself...........10,9,8,7,6............:newburn:

[Marlene38EE]

I'll be posting some more blood-pressure raising links tomorrow, so I just wanted to warn you. Thre's some more below, so please take a deep breath and chill the blood pressure down?? :icon095: :icon262:

This creeping-sharia in USA and Canada is becoming a real problem and moving faster than most folks think. They KNOW the gv'ts won't move against them, and bodies like the Canadian Human Rights Commision turn a blind eye to this.

Case in point:

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2012/06/20120610-090614.html

If a neo-Nazi tried this the CHRC would be all over it and him like black on charcoal. But, this guys a muslim, and therefore incapable of racism/hatred/etc..

Things here are getting pretty bad in our community, as the muslims know they've NOTHING to fear from th gov't and police as they can scream 'oppression' and they'll be let go with a wide-berth.
And of course the following is just a 'cultural difference' and we must respect that because it's so much more important than a woman's right to not be sexually violated...y'all can hear the sarcasm, right??
QUOTE
" First, many Islamist men do not understand the imperative of consent in a sexual relationship. They believe rape is a normal rather than a criminal reaction to female physiology, and assume that this would be every man's response to a glimpse of some skin. "
ENDQUOTE
This is from a a person quick to point out the flaws in that street preacher's thinking/reasoning.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/archives/sunnews/straighttalk/2012/07/20120716-104151.html

http://www.straight.com/article-387805/vancouver/farzana-hassan-lecture-ubc-generates-backlash-bc-muslim-association-representative

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/farzana-hassan/

[Brigit Astar]

As Al Jolson sang oh so many decades ago: "You ain't seen nothing yet." Just think of how this country has changed in the last decade. Then think of how it will change in the next decade.

[Pale Rider]

You are enjoying this too much young Lady..........:sun_smiley:......on a serious note, thanks for listening to my rants; I know I can be a little rough around the edges. :icon095:

[Pale Rider]

As Al Jolson sang oh so many decades ago: "You ain't seen nothing yet." Just think of how this country has changed in the last decade. Then think of how it will change in the next decade.

Change is the one constant in our daily lives, but it's not always for the better. Case in point. :icon183:

[Marlene38EE]

As Al Jolson sang oh so many decades ago: "You ain't seen nothing yet." Just think of how this country has changed in the last decade. Then think of how it will change in the next decade.

Oh, we are....and watching the shadows to be sure.

[Marlene38EE]

You are enjoying this too much young Lady..........:sun_smiley:......on a serious note, thanks for listening to my rants; I know I can be a little rough around the edges. :icon095:

Me or Brigit??
Enjoying this?? Not so much. The only thing that makes this tolerable is the companionship of folks here at SSP.
You being rough around the edge?? All's good. :icon131: I haven't noticed anything beond continued manners and eloquence on your part to be honest.
Rant away, this is a forum, where people can speak right?? :icon095:

[Marlene38EE]

Change is the one constant in our daily lives, but it's not always for the better. Case in point. :icon183:

NO kidding.
I thought the fundies (fundamentalists) here and their calls for a dress-code were an isolated incident, then 'Hello!' this idiot in Toronto pops up.
That preacher....I'd really love to drop a car on him.

[Brigit Astar]

There are a lot of crazy people in this world--tens of millions in fact. If they ruled the world, it would be hell on earth.

[Marlene38EE]

There are a lot of crazy people in this world--tens of millions in fact. If they ruled the world, it would be hell on earth.

...and they will NEVER be allowed to. Extremists of any stripe/ideology = bad news and are to be resisted and fought/put down.

[Brigit Astar]

But insanity is contageous, and it can spread gradually--over decades. So it happens that what was thought to be crazy fifty years ago is now accepted fact.

[Marlene38EE]

But insanity is contageous, and it can spread gradually--over decades. So it happens that what was thought to be crazy fifty years ago is now accepted fact.

Good point, and damn true!!
But yranny is still Tyranny, no matter who tries it or when.
That was true over a thousand years ago, and is true today, yes??

On the bright side, the local Genuine Muslims have begun to stand with us Citizens and call-down the extremists for what they are.
We (the citizens) are watching their backs and families, just in case the hater-muslims try something appropriate to their modus-operandi such as coercion by threat, assault vs. their families, etc..

The hater-muslims ain't got NO fans here!!

[Brigit Astar]

I think that eventually a backlash will come toward the Muslim extremists and terrorists by the Muslim world community. But in the meantime, the extremists can and will do a lot of damage.

[Marlene38EE]

I think that eventually a backlash will come toward the Muslim extremists and terrorists by the Muslim world community. But in the meantime, the extremists can and will do a lot of damage.

The backlash has begun, but it's gonna need time to build. More and more Genuine Muslims are standing up against them--but a slow process as they do get targetted by the exremists really quick.
The extremists, yeah, they'll do a lot of damage as they have already. Even here, we feel their pressure and it's bsically the same as everywhere; Comply or Die.
The problem they face here is; We know who they are, and they don't have their favorite proselytizing implements; AK-47s.
But I doubt they consider such to be major handicaps. Still if they try the usual crap, here they can't really hide--and it won't be a bunch of easily kowed goat farmers they'll be facing.
The legal system won't help us, the gov't sees 'no apparent problem'. so it seems we're on our own out here.
It'll get sorted out--hopefully without it becoming a war zone.